F...
A...
I...
Trust
H...
Trusting is another way to say having faith. I heard it a while back, our faith is not whether or not God exists, or whether or not Jesus lived, died and was resurrected... that's just pure fact. Did you know we have more documentary evidence for the resurrection of Jesus than we do for the murder of Julius Caesar? Theres actually more written evidence that Jesus lived than there is evidence that Julius Caesar lived. So if it isn't existence that we have trust in, what is it? Its the faith and trust to believe what God says. Much of it comes down to faith and trust in Jesus' words on the cross IT IS FINISHED.
When I think of praying for forgiveness of sins, and my own right relationship with God, I used to think I was appealing to God's sense of mercy. It was, "hopefully God is still patient and won't zap me this time I messed up" time and time again. I've heard it now said, and it makes more sense now, that when we pray for our right relationship with God, we are actually appealing to God's sense of justice. An example: If I were taken to court and found guilty of a crime...lets say robbery. What if, someone walks in from the back of the court room and says "Nope, I will actually take that punishment onto myself, I'll go to prison for him instead." The judge then sends the guy to jail and he serves out the sentence. It is not the judge's mercy that sends the other man to jail and keeps me free. If the judge were to later send me to jail that would be violating justice. Next time you pray for forgiveness, realize that you are TRUSTING in God's justice. Since it is finished, and the price has been paid, the penalty has been placed on Jesus, we no longer have anything left to do but to trust and place our faith in what was done on our behalf.
The Bible is the written evidence that you're speaking of? That's hardly a reliable source, as it was passed down and translated many times by mortal, fallible, self-interested men over thousands of years. It seems to me that more (than zero) historians who were around at the time would have documented the existence of a man who went around healing people and performing miracles. So how come the only proof of God's existence comes from this archaic text? You'd think he'd want his presence acknowledged in modern times as more and more people stray from Christianity due to the glaring lack of evidence.
ReplyDeleteAlso I think you need to read up on the judicial system. The only people who ever serve out anyone else's sentence are those who have been falsely convicted.
I totally agree with part of what you are saying! The only people who ever serve out someone else's sentence are the people who don't actually deserve to. Sorry for being convoluted above, that's what I was trying to get across. Where we were guilty, Jesus steps in and takes the consequences, not for what He did, but for what we've all done. Because one day we'll all have to stand before God and give a statement about everything we've ever done or said.
ReplyDeleteTo respond to the other part of the comment, I don't want to argue at all but I think maybe I can answer some of your questions. If you'd like to talk more about it email me at piofca@gmail.com. I think in short though, I'd ask you: how much evidence would be enough for you to believe God is actually real? What would you need in order to believe?
I see what you're saying, just pointing out that most people would be uncomfortable with the idea of letting a criminal walk free while someone else takes the fall. If we will all be held accountable for our actions then why did Jesus need to die to save us? How come we're all guilty from birth?
ReplyDeleteIn terms of my beliefs, God's existence would need to be proven to me beyond all doubt. Currently I don't see anything that could be counted as evidence. Many people find God as the answer to questions such as "how did we get here?" or "what's our purpose in life?", but to me these questions are a bit ridiculous. We are utterly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, so it follows that some things must simply be beyond our comprehension. Our purpose on this earth has much more meaning if we find it within ourselves rather than turning to the convenient answer. I am comfortable with not knowing everything, I would be crazy if I thought that I did. I am comforted by the the idea of my ego ceasing to exist after I die, and when weighing the current evidence that exists to support the idea of an afterlife this outcome is all I can really be certain of.
Thanks for such a thoughtful response. 1 more thought, what would prove God's existence beyond all doubt to you? Him appearing visibly to you, or like a burning bush type thing? In completing college, I've found it extremely hard to find 1 single thing that is proved beyond all doubt... I believe many things are beyond our comprehension, just like you do, and indeed it would be crazy for me to think I know everything. But I believe you are significant and valuable, and if turning inward leaves you empty and wanting something more, I believe the real authentic Jesus (not a fake imitation Jesus) is where anybody can turn to.
ReplyDeleteFor the 1st half--its pretty ridiculous that a judge would let the guilty party go, but my belief is that is precisely is what has happened for those who choose to trust in Jesus. He paid for the punishment we deserve. To answer the question as to why Jesus had to die to save us...in short its because Jesus' death allowed us to have a personal relationship with the Judge. As a Jesus follower I will stand before God, but it won't be as a stranger, it will be as someone who is adopted into His family. Its not that I've done good in my life (I have not) but its the fact that the Judge now views me as His own child. Those who identify with Jesus have that welcome into God's family.
For the other one about being guilty from birth, I don't think newborn infants are going to Hell as some medieval church doctrines taught--God doesn't make arbitrary judgements. But the truth is every single person, in some way shape or form has hurt another human or hurt creation, or hurt themselves. See for those of us who've stolen something, spread gossip, yelled at, spoke badly of, or taken advantage of someone, we stand guilty of hurting someone God loves. Just like you said, crimes have to be dealt with. The beauty is though, Jesus has taken the penalty and punishment I deserve for what I've done.
To prove his existence to me I would need to presented with evidence. It's as simple as that. There is no testable, verifiable evidence supporting God's existence. That is what I would need to believe. Sure we can't technically "prove" anything at all, but that is not a valid reason to believe something. Through science and reason we can determine things about our world that we can safely assume to be true. These assumptions, however, can be repeatedly tested with consistent results. The assumption that God exists cannot be tested at all. Lack of evidence against something is not evidence for it. It's impossible to prove that a Christian god is not real the same way it's impossible to prove that the Greek god Poseidon was not real.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering who is this fake imitation Jesus you speak of? How can you be sure the real authentic Jesus is, in fact, real and authentic? As I am sure you are aware, there are thousands of religions in this world, each with their own holy figures. Individuals who grew up in other parts of the world around these drastically different religions took on their respective views with the same passion and absolute belief that you hold for Christianity. Does this not make you question?
I totally understand the desire to get testable, verifiable, repeatable, scientific, rational evidence for the existence of God. Studying philosophy I've learned of a paradigm that helps me understand why that generally doesn't happen. We are asking for physical evidence of a non-physical being (God), rational evidence for a non-rational (in the philosophical understanding) being. For me I find rational, physical evidence in the person of Jesus, who claimed to be God, and whom his followers and friends wrote about, testifying to what they saw and heard Jesus say. But I totally get that some people (like it seems you do) simply don't believe that Jesus walked the earth and his acts, thoughts and teachings are recorded in what we today call "the gospels." I 100% get that many people will never believe that.
ReplyDeleteThe fake imitation I'm talking about is the image/ idea of Jesus that has been created and shaped by culture, tradition and human notions of religion over the last 2000 years. I'm as sure that Jesus is in fact real and authentic, just like I believe Julius Caesar lived (though I've never met him)or just like I believe Mahatma Gandhi lived, though I never spoke with him. There are thousands of religions in the world, indeed, and there is no doubt in my mind that because I was born in America I was introduced to Christianity at an early age. But to reduce my beliefs to a simple explanation that I was born where it is common, neglects the many other factors that have brought me to follow Jesus. Its more than an emotional response, intellectual, societal or cultural thing, just like it is for people who choose to be Buddhist monks or Shinto ascetics. Other peoples passion for their own set of beleifs doesn't at all shake my decision to follow Jesus. Just like others enthusiasm for radical violent Islam doesn't make you doubt your beliefs does it? I don't follow Buddha, the Tao, Mohammed or the American dream, because I believe the one true way to be with God, and to live life truly life is to follow Jesus.
Do you acknowledge that had you been born in another part of the world you may very well have been brought up believing in a completely different religion altogether? It seems to me that all religions have some form of documentation that they deem sufficient in justifying their beliefs, and it stands to reason that the holy figures depicted by these differing texts could not all have existed as described. Yet individual religions tend to tout themselves as the one truth. How do you know that your version is the one that will lead you to eternal bliss? Sure, Jesus was documented in the Bible by supporters of one particular doctrine, but where are the accounts of his existence by the secular historians of his time? The Bible includes many things that are clearly parables (e.g. Noahs ark), it wouldn't be a stretch to conclude that his very existence was crafted as a means to convey a message as well.
ReplyDeleteOthers enthusiasm for radical, violent Islam only reinforces my belief that religion clouds people's judgements and is used as a tool to manipulate people's thoughts and values.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree that religions get used to manipulate peoples thoughts and values and its really terrible. In my mind God thought and thinks that is terrible too, when Jesus came He went into the temple (the center of religion in Judea) and threw people out who had been using religion and religious buildings as a way to make money off the poor, exploit orphans, widows and outsiders, and manipulate people.
ReplyDeleteIf I had been born in a different part of the world there is a very good chance I would be brought up in a different religion, but I don't see how that effects my choice now to identify with Jesus. To reduce my belief in the simple explanation that I was born in the US is hardly a satisfactory way to explain why I am now a Christian. I know there are plenty of people raised "Christian" who have never thought about it, or decided for themselves why they believe what they believe (I didn't until 3 years ago), but how then would you explain people who are raised as non-Christian, who later in life choose to follow Jesus? I know following Jesus will lead me to an eternity with God because I'm getting a taste of it now. The thing about eternity is that it doesn't start when we die, eternity doesn't have time or space constraints. I choose to spend my time in God's presence, and that will continue long after I stop taking breaths here, and I have the option to be in God's presence because Jesus has made that opportunity. I know a lot of people have a problem with the idea that there is 1 Truth. But if there is no such thing as objective Truth, then what is right and what is wrong? I'm very curious who you would consider a 'secular historian' around the 1st century? The problem I have with that notion is that nobody at that time period can be considered 'secular,' everyone worshiped the greek gods, the city gods, YHWH, Amon, Zeus, Ra, Dionysius, Baal, there wasn't really anyone we could consider in the modern notion of 'secular.' If we wanted to look at people who wrote about Jesus but who were not themselves part of the Jesus follower movement we could look at someone like Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus, Lucian or even the Babylonian Talmud.
ReplyDeleteI'm merely trying to point out the millions of other people who are confident that they are following the one truth, yet hold radically different religious beliefs.
ReplyDelete"how then would you explain people who are raised as non-Christian, who later in life choose to follow Jesus?"
There are plenty of people in the world who are in need of comfort, and religion offers just that. It reduces ones accountability and promises eternal bliss to those who just believe. Your life is good? Then God is great for granting you these things. Your life is full of struggles and hardship? It was God's plan, just wait for heaven.
"I know a lot of people have a problem with the idea that there is 1 Truth. But if there is no such thing as objective Truth, then what is right and what is wrong?"
Religion isn't integral to being a good person. There are plenty of atheists who have morals and live good lives. These people don't need religion to explicitly tell them what is right and wrong, some things are inherent in being human.
Secular was the wrong word, non-Christian would have been better. But I'd be interested to read some accounts of Jesus' miracles from Pliny, Tacitus, etc., if you can find them. I can't deny that Christianity began, this is obvious. However I am skeptical that the man who called himself Jesus was truly the son of God and the son of a virgin. Never once before have I seen a verifiable account of the laws of nature being broken.